SPEAKER_01 0:00

Content disclaimer, this episode discusses issues around mental health and suicide. Welcome to another discussion from the Park Bench, where an artist and an athlete explore a new topic and hope to inspire the community's arts and sports. Because we know they matter and play a huge role in shaping our youth and our community. So get comfortable and join us from the Parkbench.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

Today we're on part two of our two-part series with our interview with Christopher Bowers. And if you haven't listened to part one, we would encourage you to go back to last week's episode because this is a continuation of that. And we are talking about mental health and substance abuse with Christopher Bowers. So it we we touched on um the pressures in sports, and especially, so I'm a young, I'm just gonna put myself into um, I'm a young, I'm I'm a young Teddy. I will no, we'll say Peter. I'm a young Peter. And I know I'm a young Peter and uh, you know, I want to uh I'm really good at football, you know, and and I'm in I'm in high school now and I look around me and there's other and I'm competing for those scholarship spots, right? I'm I'm being noticed, I can see I have skill and I want to go to those universities. I want to have full scholarship, I want to have the most opportunities available to me. And then I look around and I see everyone's going to the gym, everyone's working out, everyone is like getting better and better. And then, you know, I see people doing steroids. And I think if I don't, then I'm not gonna be at the level that they're at, and I could miss my opportunity. So there's a pressure, I think, at that age when, and I'm I'm I'm not sure because I'm not in that space, but I'm sure there must be a slippery slope with steroids and addiction.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Oh, definitely. Like, I mean, if it's I mean, is that a question for me, Kimmel? Yes, yes, yes. I didn't know I was jumping. Yeah, I mean, I was I mean, I have that experience as a as a as a high school kid playing ball. So, you know, American football here, you're you you play from the time you can walk, yeah, and your whole goal is one day down the road be in the Super Bowl. Like that's every I mean, that's everybody, that's every boy's dream that plays football. Yeah, you know, and so it's and you're you're you're in, you're you're not only you're you're being being competitive to to get to the scholarship or whatever, but you're being competitive for the next game, for the next position. You're being competitive for you, you don't want to lose your position. So there's a lot of stress with that stuff. And then yeah, you're not, you're not maybe not as big or as strong as the person next to you or whatever, or they, you know, every year you do like a fitness test, and you got to be at a certain level of that fitness test so you look good to scouts. Yeah. So if I could put on 30 pounds within the summer and come back and play ball and play even 15% better than I was the year before that, which is very low, by the way, when you're doing steroids, you go way beyond that. Yeah, I mean, you know, there it's a big deal. It happens a lot. What happens in every sport with all kinds of different banned substances like that? You know, EPO, uh, um, growth hormone, all that stuff happens. You know, it's it's scary.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Yeah. And and just and just and and like you mentioned this earlier, just substance in general. I mean, you're at that age where you're high school, you're going to parties, things are are creeping in, and and and and when there's maybe you don't turn to steroids for that pressure, but maybe there are those pressures to be good and and and you're constantly like training, practicing so much pressure to be good, pressure to to keep up with the other people that you go to a party and you just naturally want to release and and and and you turned to substance and it starts off as casual and then all of a sudden it snowballs into something that you can't control.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Aaron Powell You know, it's it's Oh sorry, go ahead, Chris.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

No, go ahead, buddy. On you.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

No, I was just gonna say we we touched on before too, at that age, your brain is not fully formed yet, right? So you're not making you don't have the ability to make really good decisions. And I don't know if we treat the young adults as adults, and so they're put into a spot where they have to make these adult decisions, they're not making good decisions, whether it's alcohol or steroids or whatever it might be. You know, do we need, and we touched on this earlier, but do we need coaches in that space to to sort of guide them to say, like that that football coach to say to be really tough on steroids or or whatever it might be, or drinking, to really understand that these kids don't make the best decisions because they are kids, like that that must be a critical time in their lives. Would you say? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think I mean I don't know, I don't know how it is now. There's probably a lot more um a lot more emphasis on not doing it and all that. But you know, years ago, this is before they even did the drug test around steroids and all that, or e or whatever. But if your performance was amazing, yeah, a lot of the coaches back when I was growing up just kind of turned their head because you were doing great on the field. Of course. You know, and as long as you were doing great on the field, they didn't really question a lot of stuff. And so, and then you have, you know, not only you're doing it, but you got half a team that's doing it. You know, then they started doing a lot of drug testing around that stuff. But I think a lot of it is uh, and I don't know, and I could, I I don't want to, I'm I may be totally wrong about today's world when it comes to sports, but you know, used to was just basically don't do it because we're gonna do a drug test. There was no right follow-through because I mean you're you're telling me, okay, I'm I can't do that drug uh because okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna excel, my my speed's gonna go, I'm gonna be faster, stronger, better than everybody on the team, but yet you I can't do it. Why? It doesn't make sense, you know? Yeah, and then so I I think I think if and plus, you know how it is when you're growing up, you're invincible. So you don't think about when you're 30 and you develop cancer because of the drug or you know, all that stuff later down the road. So and then the and and unfortunately, our norm today is it's normal for kids to try alcohol and smoke pot before they're even in junior high. Yeah, it's kind of the thing that it's just this thing, you know, it's like wow, it's just blown blown me away that you know, and some people can do it and not a problem and try it, not a problem. But if you have the gene, you know, if you have that addictive gene in you, you're you're at some point it's gonna get you.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

Yeah, see, that's the scary point. And and that's the interesting thing, is that I and I I want to just share a story and then I want to touch on that that addictive gene and and if it really is um embedded in DNA. So my both my parents um grew up in, well, they're Eastern European. So drinking was a huge thing. And I remember even when I was little and we would have um uh a like a like a like a greasy meal, they would actually give me a little bit of beer and say it goes, it it helps you digest.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

So they would give me a little bit of beer. And and and both of them would would drink on the weekends, like it was something that you do, like you always just went and purchased alcohol, and over the weekends that's just what they did, and they did it with their friends, and and and it was a a norm. And I witnessed this as I grew up. And and sure, I dabbled a bit in in high school, you know, like just the norm. But now, today I don't drink at all. And yeah, and and I mean, it's it's just a choice, it's a lifestyle. I don't like the way I feel when I wake up. Yeah, it's just extra calories, this is extra expenses because this is so expensive. Yeah, and and there is, Matt touched on it um, you know, in in the former in in the previous episode, but there is a bit of a stigma attached because if I go out with my girlfriends, they're like, hey, let's have a let's have a wine, yeah, you know, let's have a glass of wine, let's have some cosmos. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have a tea.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Right. And and what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Right. Yeah, and and they almost don't want you there. Some some don't.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Because and I've and I've noticed this even I'll I'll I'll go to food because I I use a food analogy, it's easier. So when we're all out for lunch and I order a salad and everybody orders a cheeseburger and fries, they're like, oh, uh and they try to explain, oh, normally I get a salad, but I'm just getting a cheeseburger and fries. I'm like, if you want cheeseburger and fries, eat it. Like it's if you want it, have it. If you want that drink, have it. Yeah. But me not having it somehow makes it's like a mirror in front of them that they're like, oh, I have a choice not to, but I'm doing it. And not having me there is easier because I'm not drinking.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's amazing when you go out to have food too, that it's just assumed. Yeah. Like from the the weight staff. Oh, you're not gonna have alcohol? Right. Like it's it's it's part of the culture.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Oh, and so I went down rabbit hole. So I was talking about about the fact that I don't drink, but but my parents did. So back to that DNA. So is it something that you can almost like know your history and know that you have um alcoholism within it, and know that you kind of have that that DNA or that gene that could make you susceptible if you try and you're like, hey, this is great, and you're just now you're deep in it.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of people that are much more educated than me that done so much research around this stuff. And you know, the way that the way that I've been taught, the way that I look at it is I mean, I had every everybody in my life warn me. You know what I mean? It's like, don't do that because, you know, I mean, my brother died, my sister died from it, my cu I've had so many people in my life either die or go to prison and jail because of alcohol and drugs directly. You know, and then it's like, but yet I wouldn't heed the warning, you know, because maybe the first, you know, like the first couple sips of alcohol didn't, I didn't just all of a sudden twist off and start taking everybody's stuff. You know, it was it was like, but but I remember when the phenomenon of craving hit me, that was it was like an atomic bomb went off inside me. When it finally hit me, it was like all of a sudden I was okay being me for the first time in my life. Right. Like it was like I could breathe for the first time, like it I could tell you everything about that night when I was 11 years old, exactly from the time I started to the time I ended when I went to bed that night, everything went on that night. And I'm 54 now. Yeah, and to be able to remember that at that long ago, at that level, I mean, there was definitely something so powerful and profound about it. And so that moment, alcohol became my solution. Alcohol and drugs aren't the problem for an alcoholic radic, just the solution to a to an eternal thing, you know?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

So gene stuff, I mean genetics, yeah. I think I think you know, what I was taught early on is it kind of travels down the the male side of the genes, but you know, I you know, I don't um I know people that don't have anybody in their family that are alcoholics.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Yeah. It it it doesn't. And so that goes back to kind of how we talked about um earlier in the previous episode about how substance abuse and uh and and mental health, I mean, like you said, the cart before the horse, what comes first, but they're both kind of synonymous. So let's talk a bit about just mental health in general. And let's say that there's someone in my life, a loved one, that I know is suffering, whether it's um whether I'm a coach and it's one of my players, whether it's I'm a parent and it's my child, my friend, a sibling. What what can we do if if you were to kind of give just a general advice on how to approach it or or something, how just talking. How do what tools are best for us to use?

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Well, I I think as loved ones, you know, especially loved ones, I mean, yeah, definitely coaches are there as well. But I mean, the the people in your immediate family with all good intentions, everybody tries whatever they can, you know. But but like I have two daughters, and both my kids know if they travel down that road, I'm gonna be the last one that gets involved. I'll love them, you know, and I will help learn how not to enable them. I will see, but I will seek professional help for myself, even though I'm in the industry. I'm a dad at that point. I'm not a professional. And I gotta be able to step back as a parent and go, I don't know this stuff, because you don't know what you don't know, you know, and just saying, hey, don't do that, it's not gonna work. And so I've got to, I think for parents, loved ones that are closely affected by the person who's addicted, or you know, mental even mental health issues, uh, I think the first thing we do is we we contact someone who does know. We get a lot of education, as much education as we can. Um, because if it wasn't like if it wasn't for that, my family, my mother did that, and then she started her own program to learn how to deal with me, even when drinking or or going through my uh own issues. Um, and that's what led me to the path of recovery. So, and it doesn't seem like it would be that way, but she's the one that took the approach without me even knowing. She took the approach, started getting working on herself, and that in turn led me down that same path. And then after that, multiple people in my family led went down that path. So I think that would be the one thing I would say, whether it be you know, coaches as well as family members or loved ones, you know, wives or husbands, children, you know, just being able to reach out to someone in the profession that knows exactly what needs to happen, when it needs to happen, because there's a small window of yes, you know, yes, I'll get help. And I think that that window could be easily brushed over or just completely ignored and you don't even know what it's there.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

So don't tackle it yourself. It's it's when you notice it, excuse me. When you notice it, you need to get uh proper professional help for your children or spouse or brother, sisters.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

What if they, you know, and this comes into um kind of almost like an intervention, because I think people think intervention and they think um substance abuse, but there could be an intervention for getting help, right? I mean because you see someone struggling, you know, and and you and to me I use the analogy of like they're drowning. Like if you see someone drowning in the pool and they're bobbing up and down, then you jump in and you you rescue them, and it's not that easy. You're you're watching someone drown and and you're giving them the life preserver, you're telling swim to the edge, you're you're trying to bring them up, and and they're not wanting it. They're wanting to drown. I mean, that's a horrible position. How what do you do what when they don't want the help and and you're just watching them suffer?

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Well, what I tell people is like if someone's drowning, the biggest thing people jump in to save them, they get drowned themselves because you don't know how to properly rescue someone who's drowning. Right. Right? Yeah. So a drowning person usually will drown the person with them trying to get trying to save themselves. But if they don't want to save themselves, if they're if they're most people that are in terms of uh mental health and substance abuse disorder, you can't really see clearly at the time. So in a lot of it doesn't there, there's a there's a small number of people that all of a sudden, yes, I want help, and the loved ones can talk to them and they'll go to treatment or go get help for uh whatever's going on. But the but a lot of times the delusion of it is so great that they honestly believe they don't either have a problem or it's not as bad or they can control it. There's a lot of that that comes up, you know. So um an intervention, a lot of times people have such a weird, weird view of interventions because I don't know how it is there, but in in this in the in America, it's you know, you have the show intervention, and and it's not done like that, it's not dramatized the way that that that TV is gonna dramatize it, you know. It's a very loving, loving process. It went done right.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's when a professional really needs to come in because Oh, yeah. Like you can't do that. You can't you can't do that yourself because you're frustrated. Like, I'm gonna show support. And then as a parent too, you're like tough love, you know, like snap out of it, you know, and and you approach it um in in a loving way, in a strict way. You know, I've I've heard of lots of parents, they're they're almost like at their wit's end with whatever, whether it's addiction or or their or their child, usually it's with addiction, and they're like, boundaries up, I'm at my wit's end, you need to leave, right? You need I I don't you need to get out of this house, and and they just kind of put up that hard boundary. Maybe tough love will snap them out of it. But that could do the opposite approach, right? And and you and then you think if I give them too much love, love, then I'm enabling them. Then I'm not giving that that strictness of of how to to help them. So it's it's so difficult.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Which is probably why you need a professional, right? Like if you're struggling with a decision, that likely is a signal to you or anybody that's going through that that you can't handle it on your own, right? Which is hard to because you want to be able to to be that person. But but I I mean, Chris, is that right? Like if you if you're in that situation, don't even if like trying to struggle through it is the signal to say, get some help. Correct?

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. I think uh, you know, why not get help? I mean, that's yeah. Yeah, good point. It's like why not why not get all the information you can? You're dealing with something, especially when it comes to you know, substance abuse disorder, you're dealing with something that kills more people than cancer every year. Right. It's like this is a this is huge, this is not like a little bitty small thing. So it's like why not get all the information you can, you know? And support for family. There's so much support for families now, it's great. Yeah, there's a lot of support out there.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

And and I guess you know the bottom line is just keep talking. And and we talked about it, you know, in the previous episode, just men talking to men. Yeah, you know, and and Chris, you mentioned like sharing your story. I mean, you are uh if if you look at you walking down the street, you are uh uh like you have a presence, you are a a macho, super cool person. And you know, for you to be vulnerable and and to share your experiences and and to say, hey, you know, this is me, and and I can open up as much as I can. I'm not putting up this this male bravado, like guys like I'm I'm cooler than that. I I I can push through this, and you're like, no, I mean, I needed help, and and I'm not too proud to say it.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, yeah, I don't, yeah, I definitely that's yeah. I I learned from some some really amazing men when I first got sober that i if I don't get authentic and real, I'm not gonna make it. You know, and so it's it's just and then so I that's just the same. And I and I and cocking has never got got me anywhere. Like, especially if I'm dealing with someone who's already scared and already hurting, why am I gonna go in there and give them more fear and more hurt? That doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah. Okay, so regarding, you know, kind of where you're at, obviously we've uh talked about a bit about your journey, but if you had to go back and and talk to yourself perhaps when you were eight or nine years old, what what advice would you do you think you would give yourself, knowing kind of the the struggles and the challenges you went through? Is there anything you could have said to yourself that would have would have helped when you were younger?

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Oh man, that's a that's a hard question. Wow. Um, you know, I don't I mean I mean now I look back at my life and I I wouldn't change a thing because it made me who I am today. And that's one side. I mean, it doesn't mean it's all positive. I mean, I went through a lot of stuff. I've been shot twice. I mean, I've gone through a lot of stuff growing up. But I think the thing is, I think the I think, I think maybe just telling myself you're and I know how cheesy this might sound, but that you're okay just being who you are, even if you're damaged and broken feeling. Yeah, and that's not the truth. Because I I grew up basically most of most of my childhood and adolescence is feeling like I was damaged or broken at some level. I couldn't put my finger on where and what, but it was some level I was damaged or broken. No one ever told me that, by the way. Right. That was just kind of an internal uh conversation.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Like you thought to yourself, I'm not like something's wrong with me. Like I am somehow damaged or broken. I'm not worthy or okay just being me.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah, it's kind of like when you when you go to the supermarket, the grocery store, and you go down and you go to the the canned aisle, the canned vegetable aisle, and you a dented can of peas that somebody pushed aside. I kind of felt like that damaged can. You know what I mean? Like like somebody sees the outside, they go, it must be something wrong with the internal part of that. And they push it away, they don't want it. Or I always it's funny because I have a story about I always go to the supermarket at the grocery store, and it's like this the bananas. Everybody grabs the bunch of bananas, no one ever grabs the singles that are laying there. Yeah, I felt like single banana. So my my my kids, my daughters grew up with us going to the grocery store, and we buy all the single bananas, and literally they would they they would go get them and be like, hey dad, there's a single banana right here. I mean, yeah. And we we'd we'd literally play a game of grabbing each banana and go, you matter. You matter. You know what I mean? That's the kind of that's kind of how it was growing up. I just kind of felt like I was damaged goods, and you know, and it wasn't until I got sober where that started healing. You know, I think you know, another thing, another thing around mental health, and I'll be quiet around that. No, no, another thing around mental health, I think, I think we don't talk about a lot, is the it's kind of becoming the more of the biggest big thing to talk about now, which is trauma, because trauma shows up a lot like uh undiagnosed with mental health or substance abuse disorder. And it could be just simply a lot of trauma from the past, and it could it doesn't have to be major trauma as we label it. You know, we don't have to label trauma.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's um I'm sure you've heard uh or listened to Gabor Mate, the he's uh in Canada, but he talks a lot about trauma and uh you know what people have gone through. Big and small. It doesn't have to be being shot or anything like that. It could just be the things. I know. It's it's interesting. Because I think about I I wonder if everybody has that feeling, Chris, where they feel like I'm not good enough. And even the kids that you think have it all when you're younger, they probably have that same thought that I'm not good enough for whatever reason. It's it's we kind of all share that, but no one wants to talk about it, you know?

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so. And it's an isolating feeling. No, go ahead, Chris.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Yeah, no, no, I think I think it is I think you're right. I think it's an isolating feeling. I think we don't talk about it enough. And I think I think probably most humans, I'm I could speak for a lot of people that I know, is I think most of us do grow up like that. I think the difference is uh people some people grow up with tools on how to deal with that, or even if they try their own tools and it doesn't work, maybe they don't have the some people in the world have parents around them or people. Around them that are going to be able to give them the right tools or action around getting through that stuff, you know?

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and I love that banana analogy. That reminds me of um we're we're kind of similar in our family when it comes to Christmas trees, right? Everyone goes for the big, the beautiful one, but we'll go for the one that's a little bit damaged. And then once you put the ornaments on it, they're also beautiful, you know? And yeah, yeah. And it's it's kind of the same with the banana, but no one wants to feel like the throwaway, you know. And sometimes you can feel kind of alone and and no one really, if I left, would anybody really care? Right. You know, like if if I wasn't here, would would it matter to anyone? And and it it does. Like you do matter, and and it's it's a horrible feeling to think that I'm I'm a throwaway. I I'm just that mashed up can of of peas, and and who cares if I get thrown away, no one's gonna care anyways.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Yeah. Yeah. Um I was uh I was at a store the other day in New Orleans, and this kid was this kid was screaming at the top of their lungs and just crying and screaming. And uh, and I thought to myself, I was like, you know, I wish we could still do that as adults. When did you stop? Yeah When did we stop being real? You know, you know, like it's some at some some level we just stop we stop allowing ourselves to feel anything.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Yeah, yeah, that's a great thing, you know. Yeah, and and just being able to to say, like, I'm yeah, they're screaming, but we can use it in words and just say how you're feeling, and and and I'm not coping, I'm I'm not managing everything. I'm I have a lot of pressure, and I'm just I'm not being able to I can't deal with it, you know, and and just talking to someone about it. So it's it's it's all comes down to talking, just asking and talking.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Yeah, I love the asking part that you say. That's that's important because I believe like I think I think for us as I don't I don't know, I don't know about women, I'm sure it's the same for women, but men, it feels like a lot of times that people would rather see us die on the horse than fall off the horse. You know, yeah, put that on a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

I mean, it's true. That is so true.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

Yeah, I know. And and like, why not just say and not just how are you, just truly, yeah. How are you? Like, how are you? And and I want to know the answer, and I'm not going to, I'm not gonna quickly, you know, we always talk about holding the conch in terms of a conversation. Like, I want con I want you to tell me because I want to just listen about you and and I just want to hear all about you and and how you're doing. Yeah, it's just just asking. So we ask all our guests in the foyer of life. If you're standing in the foyer and there were two doors, an artist and an athlete, which door would you choose?

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Oh man, I don't know. That's a hard one. I'm both.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

I know, I know this. So this that's why I want I was so excited to ask you this because I know that you are, but if you had to choose, which one would you choose?

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Oh let's see, music, art, or sports. Probably if if I could choose one right now, it would be an athlete.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Although you have like I I have, you know, and I don't know if you like to if you show your art or if you let people in on that. Do you? Yeah, okay, because I've seen some of your work and it it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Thank you so much. Yeah, that's uh that was actually um something that that that I mean, I've always written music and played music and and did all that stuff with guys, and I love doing that, but the art stuff, the canvas work and all that just really was uh a tool to use because I couldn't train anymore for martial arts that I've done for you know 20-something years, 30 years.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

Yeah, it's it's an outlet. It it can be a very therapeutic outlet.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Matt is, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

I love it, but yeah, it is definitely an outlet. And and they're and they're super cool. Keep sharing them. If you've done anything recently, just make sure that you uh you you you send some picks because I really want to. Oh, I would love to. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. Um, Matt, is there anything that you wanted to add or um yeah, chime in on?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Uh yeah. Um my uncle uh took his own life uh due to substance abuse and mental health issues. And um it it affected the family in such a profound way. Like I'll never forget the day that that that happened, and I was, I think, six years old, and it still just like sticks with me and sticks with the rest of my family. And the reason why I wanted to bring him up is this man was a surgeon, his wife was a psychiatrist, they had kids from the outside, they looked like they had everything. Um and you know, these issues can affect anybody. You know, it's not it's not just like who you might expect. It it could go it could go after anyone, anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah. Yeah, that's uh I mean that's it's uh a great sort of add-on to to what we said earlier. Like you just you just don't know, right? Often you think we all kind of have we're all a little bit broken, but nobody wants to share it. But that's an extreme example of where on the surface it looks like everything is perfect. Like how could they?

SPEAKER_04 27:20

And Matt, like I I don't know how much you remember being so young, but but was it really just the family and everyone was just blindsided, like they had no idea when it happened that that he was even struggling?

SPEAKER_00 27:34

I think his his wife, my aunt, had she knew a little bit, but not a lot. Um I think uh she had caught him a little bit using substances, and so she kind of knew, but nobody knew the extent.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Yeah.

unknown 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

And and and Chris, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but uh people are have have a good way of hiding it. Like it's yeah, like if you have that type of addiction, you you are very good at not letting anyone know that it's happening.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Yeah, a lot of a lot of times. I mean, it could be very hidden, uh, especially if you're successful in business. Some people think if you're successful in business, there's no way you could actually have any hard times or you know, mental health issues or substance abuse disorder stuff, and you can. I mean, that's not it doesn't discriminate, you know. And so, yeah, I mean it's you know, in the skill. I like to when I work with families that have had suicide in the family, we work with how to stop that generation thing going on because in my like in my family, we've had three people my my sister, um, my cousin, and his son. Like literally, like it's so it's it's it's a very it's one of those things that can it can devastate a family, but it also can continue on, which is scary.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Yeah, yeah. And I do remember um there was a uh a class, like um it was a a parents kind of a parents night, and it was for parents uh whose children are are are venturing into high school, and it was uh put on by the local community center, and all the parents were invited, it was free, and you didn't really know what it was about. They just kind of said it's about um the challenges that that that kids face, and you're just kind of like, okay, well, as a parent, I'm I'm gonna get some tools that I wouldn't necessarily know about. And it was about suicide. And the one thing that they said is there's a stigma around, and it used to be, and maybe that still is, but if you talk about it, it'll happen. So don't talk about it because then you almost glorify it or you give people ideas, and if you talk about it, then they may think that that's a way to do it, and they're like, that's the opposite. Um the word suicide should be mentioned, should be talked about. It shouldn't be something that you shy away from. You should talk about it, talk about how it feels, talk about how like just what does it mean to you, and and you know, just have those conversations early.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

Yeah, it's just it's just a matter of just taking the stigma away and and just uh voicing about it, and then to m and and it it doesn't discriminate, you know, and Matt um being a surgeon, I would think that all the pressures that they had, like and it's you're a CEO, you know, you think you have it all, you have all this money, you're successful, you're a successful celebrity, you think you have it all, you have the fame. Um, you know, he had a wonderful family, kids. You think from the outside you have it all, but those pressures, no one knows what you're dealing with unless you know you talk about it or people ask. Well, thank you, Chris. Thank you for coming in. Thank you, Matt, for sharing. Thank you, Ted.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Thank you, Matt. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Yeah, yeah. And and thank you, Ted, for um, for all your insights. And Chris, um, I mean, it was just a pleasure to have you on. And so if um if anybody wanted to um find out more about you, or is there anything that you have coming that, you know, something interesting to share in terms of your like um your journey or something adding to it, or anything that you wanted to share to the audience?

SPEAKER_03 31:26

You know, I mean, I'm I'm always available for even a conversation. So um, you know, families can always reach out to me, find me through my website. And then um, I usually do I do a lot of seminars and stuff like that, but right now I don't have anything, anything in the books for this upcoming year, and I'm done for the year. Um, so I've kind of taken a little time for the for the next couple months to not do a lot of workshop stuff. So hopefully we'll have some of those coming up uh early January, February, and that's always a great opportunity to do some good work uh around yourself and and whether it be trauma or whether it be just life in general, and we do a lot of work around uh just getting through it and having some breakthroughs around some of the core belief systems we all grew up with. Yeah, you know, awesome.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Well, we will put your website into the show notes, and if anybody wants to reach out to Chris, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Yeah, thank you so much, and thank you, Ted, and thank you everyone for listening. And please send us some some messages on on what you thought of the episode and any thoughts you have on anything of story that you want to share, we would love to hear it. Thank you, and chat soon from the park bench.